What Would You Tell This Client?
Posted August 11, 2010 in Freelance Stories, Managing Clients
Every freelancer has a story to tell about an unusual client, a nightmare client, or a good client. If you’ve been freelancing for a while, you probably also have such stories.
Usually on Freelance Folder, we explain how you should handle various client situations.
Today, I want you to do something a little less passive. I’m going to present an email from a potential “client” and I’d like you to share how you would respond to them. Once you’ve shared your response, I’ll tell you what I do when I receive such requests and why. We can learn from each other.
Here’s the Job
Several times over my freelancing career, I’ve received an unusual request in my email. Since I don’t want to embarrass any specific individuals or companies, I’ve paraphrased the request as follows:
(The italics indicate where I’ve changed the client’s identifiable information.)
How Would You Respond?
Imagine that you received this email. What response would you give to “Joe?” Or, would you respond at all?
Don’t cheat ;-) and look at my response below, but go ahead and leave your response in the comments to this post right now and the reasons why you responded the way that you did.
After you’ve read my response we’ll compare the two and we can both learn something.
My Response
First off, I want to say that I’m not completely against barter transactions. I think that sometimes they can work out. (A barter transaction is one in which goods or services are provided in exchange for other goods and services rather than for money.)
However, the truth is that I have a specific dollar amount that I have to earn each month in order to pay my bills. My creditors only take U.S. currency (or the equivalent), so that is also the best way for me to get paid.
My typical response to such an offer would usually read:
When Might a Barter Be Practical?
While I’ve never chosen to personally take part in a business barter, I do believe there are times that a business barter makes sense. Here are some of those instances:
- The other party has a service or product to trade that I already use regularly
- The other party has a service or product that I intend to start using regularly
Notice what I didn’t say. I didn’t say that bartering makes sense when the other party has something cool or something that I just happen to want. Just like with money, I can’t always afford what I want–even if I’m paying for it with my services.
My services have a dollar value. If bartering some of them away is going to cause my income to dip below what I need to earn for the month (because of the time spent), then I can’t afford to do it.
Other Factors to Consider
Of course, there are some other factors to consider:
- Accounting concerns. In most countries (including the U.S.), bartered transactions must be reported. If the value between the goods or services differs, then you may wind up with a taxable gain. Refer to your accounting professional to learn the details of your specific situation.
- Professional concerns. Like any other project, work done as part of a barter arrangement has the potential to become part of your professional portfolio. If the work you are being asked to do has the possibility of improving your portfolio, you may wish to consider it.
- Startups. Freelance businesses that are just getting started are often cash poor. I know of several freelancers who were able to get significant savings on needed services through barter. This can be especially true for freelancers who have a source of income other than through freelancing.
Of course, as with all business transactions, there needs to be an element of trust with bartering. A freelancer should be relatively sure that he or she will actually receive the promised goods or services before committing to a barter arrangement.
What Else Do You Think About Bartering?
I know I asked for your opinion on the email before, but now I’d like to ask you to share once again.
Have you ever been part of a barter arrangement? How did it work?
Share your experiences in the comments so that we can all learn from each other.
Image by Beneath_B1ue_Skies
Related posts:
About the author: Laura Spencer is a freelance writer from North Central Texas with over 20 years of professional business writing experience. If you liked this post, then you may also enjoy Laura’s blog about her freelance writing experiences, WritingThoughts. Laura is also on Google+.
The Unlimited Freelancer is Now Only $19
Unleash the true potential of your business. Get The Unlimited Freelancer and start transforming your freelance business,
now only $19.
Try searching "Getting Clients" or "Productivity"
Free Report
Sign up for our product discount list to get a free copy of Why Some Freelancers Thrive and Others Barely Survive. You can unsubscribe anytime.
Forum Discussions
- WTS Apple Macbook Air………………$480usd,Samsung I9001 Galaxy S Pl
Feb 7th, 2012 - 3:33 pm - WTS Apple iPhone 4S 64GB---$350,Nokia Lumia 800....$280
Feb 7th, 2012 - 3:30 pm - WTS Apple iPad 2 Wi-Fi + 3G 64GB....$300,HTC EVO Design 4G..
Feb 7th, 2012 - 3:29 pm
Popular Articles
- SEO Techniques All Top Websites Should Use
- When a Client Can't Afford You: Why It's Still Better to Bid High
- How To Stop Scrambling For Clients And Get A Steady Stream Of Paying Gigs
- A Simple Way To Stop Clients From Rejecting Your Proposals
- 3 Reasons Your Rates Are Still Low (And How To Start Raising Them)
92 Comments
Chris Duell
August 11th, 2010 at 8:35 amDown time.
If I had a bit of time to spare, or didn’t have paid work that had my attention, then perhaps it could be a viable option.
Of course, depends on the amount of work required, but if the payback was something that had an indefinite timeframe, and could just sit there and tick over and pay itself over time, then there may be benefit in it.
lunacat
August 11th, 2010 at 8:36 amwhen I read the client’s email, I thought that I needed some cash instead of a product. If the product is really useful to me, maybe I could make an effort to complete this job. But usually, I tend to decline those offers just like you did, politely but declining it.
Jason Gross
August 11th, 2010 at 8:38 amReading this message I still would have turned the job down, regardless of the product that this company sold or the service they offered. The reason for this is because they started the offer with the line “We don’t have a very big budget”.
So not only are they looking for cheap work but they also are undervaluing their own work. I would only consider a trade of goods or services in the event that the company who is contacting you understands that they will be trading down for the work.
I would only accept a trade if the monetary value of the product was significantly higher than what my bid for the project would be. This may sound unfair but you need to consider their cost for creating the product not what they sell it at. If they give themselves a 40% markup on a product then it also translates to a 40% discount on your services if you take the product at market value.
Simon Willans
August 11th, 2010 at 8:43 amIf it was a small project, or just a project that was flexible enough to fit around my other projects I may give it some thought – depending on what the product/service was that they were offerring in exchange.
If it was in my interests, I’d cut a deal that was of equal value to the money value of my services.
Babs Rudlin
August 11th, 2010 at 8:53 amI have completed several projects at a significantly reduced cost or as a barter to improve my portfolio, or as a test development in a new area. If both parties gain from the transaction then it is a positive exprience. I have found that everyone I have done ‘free’ or barter work for has then come back to me for additional work which is then properly funded. They have an understanding of the quality of my work and I can more easily manage thier expectations by having an understanding of thier business and actual budget. One man’s small budget is anothers bonanza dependiing upon their business background.
A large factor now is if I have the spare capacity to complete the work. I would not turn down a paying job to complete a ‘free’ one and as I said before everyone needs to gain from the process.
Jake Noble
August 11th, 2010 at 8:54 amI’d ask for more information without a doubt, you cannot go ‘into business’ with someone based on the short letter.
I would not close my mind to the idea, they might be supplying hosting or some other service which I depend on.
On the other hand they might be supplying Chocolate tea pots.
I short: More info please, then we can maybe talk.
Morgan Leu Parkhurst
August 11th, 2010 at 8:59 amI wouldn’t accept the barter because it sets the precedent for future barters with the client rather than paid projects. I agree with Jason – undervaluing their own work is a red flag for me. I sense a potential nightmare client.
Stephan
August 11th, 2010 at 9:02 amI agree with Jason Gross, great points. The biggest issue I have with barters is getting to “apples to apples.” My billing rate might be different than the materials+labor rate of a barter, so trading services may mean someone has to work harder than the other. Also, scope creep is a big concern for me…someone always does more work than the other.
I’d prefer to take the lead and create a scope of work with associated fees, then if they can chip away at it by bartering their services, let’s do business.
Solomon
August 11th, 2010 at 9:03 amMy response would be:
Dear Mr. Joe,
Great listening from you! Thanks for the kind words! I’m afraid i wouldn’t be able to work for you in this arrangement what you’re talking: trading. All quality work would naturally cost us some good money. Look at products by the good and reputed brands.. they would cost us some money. So is any good service.
So, if you think that marketing – having good copy on your site – is the last thing you would do to promote your services… I feel it is a misguided and costly idea to your business. Anyhow, I would suggest you there are some other copywriters who’re looking for some portfolio would do for you at your cost.
Wishing you all the best !
Yours sincerely
Solomon
Jordan Walker
August 11th, 2010 at 9:03 amHumble, short, sweet, and to the point.
Solomon
August 11th, 2010 at 9:27 amHi Laura,
I took it seriously and wrote my response :). I was asked by a good client to barter services – me doing his marketing tools like brochure, presentations, flyers, e-mailers and he would make my website and blog. I wanted to take it up. But, again, I thought it might make me more exhausted as I don’t know if their building my website would be that strenuous as it is mine.
But, again, I had to pay bills and needed some good money. Hence I declined it. I wrote my letter in a hurry… hope it isn’t rude. Pls. delete it if it is required.
Good post!
Bobby Adamson
August 11th, 2010 at 9:39 amIt really depends on the service or good, the potential I see in the company and for how long I’d be getting it for. This sort of situation is very similar to a company who just went public or who is looking for investors. You can give up your services and in exchange receive free services or goods and they will probably send you more work in the future for helping them out, or they could tank relatively quickly and then they have no capitol to finance the deal they made with you.
The return would have to be really good like an unlimited license for stock photography or something. Something that returned my cost on something I need/really want that I saw to be as valuable as the time I spent delivering services.
Shelly
August 11th, 2010 at 9:41 amI didn’t cheat! I read the letter, and the skipped right on down here to the bottom to post without looking at anything else (including other comments).
I have bartered before, and I don’t hesitate to do it again…. BUT I have my own criteria for doing so. I’ve bartered in the past (when I didn’t know better) and the value in return was pretty much worthless – the other guy got the good deal while I was like “Huh?” so I’ve just set my own criteria for allowing a barter to happen. Most of it is based on the “little red flag” that sometimes flies in my head.
I treat a barter request like I would any other client. If there is no money to give me, then I will ask myself if what they are offering me in return is something I need or could use right now. If not – I respectfully decline. If so, (AND if I REALLY want it) I will ask them for more information. If they are trading their “expertise” in something, I want to be sure that isn’t a title they just gave themselves, and I will investigate them. In the end, they have to be sure that they pretty much bend to *my* terms before I will accept. If a single “red flag” pops up form any reason whatsoever, I will respectfully decline.
I recently spoke with a colleague who told me that she does barter – rarely – but she does. She’s come to realize that what you get in return for a barter is never what you think you will. For example, she bartered once with a business coach. They compared rates, and basically came to the agreement that when she’d performed X hours of service to him, he would provide it right back. If one of them went over, then the overage would be paid at the regular hourly rate. She ended up paying *him*. So now she triples her hourly rate before she takes on a bartering agreement – which I think is a good idea, because a lot of people who are in this situation don’t really know how much time it will take, and quote in the wrong direction.
In the end, at last with me, you have more of a chance at being declined than you would at being accepted. But I have accepted on rare occasions, and as long as I see some benefit from it that’s worth it to me, then I will still continue that practice.
Freelance FactFile
August 11th, 2010 at 9:47 amI wouldn’t barter because a) it’s very rare that the product or service in question would be something I’d need, and b) bartering doesn’t put money in the bank to pay my monthly outgoings.
As Jason pointed out ‘we don’t have a very big budget’ is something that would set a very large warning bell clanging in my head. I tend not to work for start-ups or one-man bands, purely because they always say: ‘we don’t have a very big budget’.
Bill
August 11th, 2010 at 9:56 amHi Laura, you’re email response is spot-on. Agree with other commenters, if there’s not paid work, or if the piece is portfolio-worthy then perhaps it’s a viable solution. The only thing I’d add to the email response is an open ended offer to work at your normal business rates, and to stipulate those rates.
dava
August 11th, 2010 at 9:59 amI have had a couple of wonderful bartering experiences and a couple of terrible ones. The good ones always begin with companies that I want to support – that I would be willing to do a bit of volunteering for. So, they had a product or service that I already used regularly, and they were companies I already enthusiastically told my friends about.
As my business grows, I am turning down more opportunities for barter. One reason is, just as Laura mentions, I now write full time, for a living, and must make a certain amount of cold, hard cash. A second reason is that the most demanding clients I’ve ever had were clients who approached me with a barter. After feeling taken advantage of a few times, I’m much pickier.
Danila
August 11th, 2010 at 10:02 amMy response would be:
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your email and your kind compliments.
Your request is a first-timer for me, so I am not quite sure how to go about answering it. My initial reaction is to decline the offer, but I am willing to explore it just a little bit further.
In order to evaluate the possible barter agreement, I would need you to send me detailed information about your “productor service”, references of past work and qualifications and track-record of the members of your staff.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Best Regards,
Laura
Alternatively…
Dear Joe,
How old are you?
Regards,
Laura
Laura Spencer
August 11th, 2010 at 10:22 amGreat discussion!
Chris Duell–Interesting response. I guess I responded the way I did partly because I have very little true downtime.
Lunacat–Don’t we all need cash? :-)
Jason Gross and Stephan, Good responses. Actually, I think you’re on to something here. If we are talking about exchanging services it could be very difficult to determine what the fair market value of the service actually is. (WIth a product it’s somewhat easier since there’s a retail value.)
Simon Willans, Several other folks have mentioned flexibility as well.
Babs Rudlin–Thanks for sharing your experience. :-) I know that a lot of freelancers and others do benefit from bartering, so I am glad you stepped forward to mention some of the benefits.
Jake Noble–That makes sense, that the e-mail should be the start of a discussion…
Solomon and Danila–Thanks for following the actual instructions that I gave in the post. :-) I wanted to see how others would respond to such offers (or if they were even getting them). However, most of all, I was hoping for a discussion–which everyone is providing.
Bobby Adamson, The product or service would have to be something I wanted or needed for sure.
Shelly and Dava, I’m really glad that some folks who have actually bartered have joined the discussion. I’m particularly interested in your feedback. Shelly–your approach sounds logical. Above all it’s important to remember that it is still a business transaction even if no money exchanges hands.
Freelance FactFile–Oddly enough, I didn’t think much about their comment “we don’t have a very big budget.” I guess I overlooked it as soon as I realized that there would be no income in the project. You’re right, though, it’s a red flag.
Ricky
August 11th, 2010 at 10:23 amI’ve done a little bit of bartering before, for example small additions to a site for a lawyer who in return helped me to draft and negotiate a contract for a larger client. In this case though the exchange of services was my suggestion to a pre-existing client.
Quint
August 11th, 2010 at 10:28 amI just left my 9-5 to do full time web development and SMB IT services. I am bartering 4 hours of tech support each month (basically network maintenance) for an office space. I don’t have any room at home for an office, so this worked out perfectly.
The real answer is, as hinted at in the article, it depends. Do you really need the service? What do you know about the company and its products and services? Will the project add to your portfolio? etc, etc.
As with most questions we face in life, there is not a cut and dried answer that works for everyone. Be wise, make the best decisions you can and always focus on whether the transaction will be beneficial to your business in the long run.
Howard Theriot
August 11th, 2010 at 10:50 amThat letter was not enough to give a definite response.
In general, I do not barter. However, I have bartered twice in the past with local restaurants. Both times were win-win because local restaurants have notoriously low budgets and both were fantastic restaurants. Neither account demanded a tremendous amount of my time and I used much of my credit for client meetings.
liqui.do
August 11th, 2010 at 11:15 amI *love* working for free drinks at my fav coffeshop in town, just a few steps from office. Short walk, perfect break… It works, because work to do for that is limited.
And so far it is my only bartering. I prefer free commitment to non-profit organisations and tell customers asking for free or bartered service, that there are no free opportunities at the moment. They like to see good work done (by others ;) so they don’t need to, or they may prefer giving donations). And they don’t want to end up in a row with society for the prevention of cruelty to animals or child protection agency…
Drew Clarke
August 11th, 2010 at 11:18 amDear Potential Client
I’m very grateful for your enquiry and an opportunity to barter services. It would certainly help us both to reduce expenditure and turnover. Unfortunately at this time I don’t actually have a defined need for your products/service, however this needen’t be the end of our conversation.
I appreciate that small businesses starting out do have cash flow issues and I’m very sympathetic to this (been there) so what I would like to suggest is what they used to call ‘easy terms’ I do the work and you pay an agreed amount each week/month until the fee is paid off. This is dead easy to set up using PayPal’s subscription service and a credit/debit card.
This way your cash flow is not hit with a big bill just when you don’t need it but you get the services you need when you need them.
I’d love to come and talk this through with you in more detail. If I could call you tomorrow (whenever) then we could set up a meeting.
Many thanks for considering me
Kind regards
Has worked for me in the past just fine
Kavyansh
August 11th, 2010 at 11:19 amThats very nice way to say no. Thanks
Minna
August 11th, 2010 at 11:36 amOk I cheated. :) But my response would be pretty much exactly what you wrote. Short, sweet and direct, and no need to get into anything else.
What is also interesting is that when I was reading the original letter, it sounded exactly like a recent client of mine, except the part about bartering. So they basically told me they were a startup, not a lot of money, etc. I still took them on, but we ended up parting ways because what they wanted required a much bigger chunk of my time, which = a much bigger budget.
I agree there is a bottom line we have to meet and so bartering usually doesn’t make sense. Unless it’s for a service that I use and pay a significant amount for (I would LOVE to do a childcare services site ;)) I don’t have any desire to barter.
Bret Juliano
August 11th, 2010 at 11:46 amI wouldn’t trade services with the potential client. Perhaps I would if I had done business with the client previously, but not a first-time client. This often leads to one side getting burned because there is no way to verify that both sides will have fair compensation here.
Sponsi
August 11th, 2010 at 11:58 amI would thoroughly analyze their company, their offer (and areas I could stick to) and if that was positive, I would contact them and ask for a telephone call or even a meeting. They would definitely have to have some level of professionalism in order to even start talking about cooperation. For more – not enough information, so I’ll just go and have a look at your “solution”. : )
Vik
August 11th, 2010 at 12:04 pmI agree with Jason, though I likely wouldn’t have responded at all. Your response was much more eloquent and tactful than anything i would have said.
Steve Rose
August 11th, 2010 at 12:11 pmIf I needed their product or service, we could barter.
If I did not need their product or service, I would ask if they had a budget we could talk about. If they did, I could propose what I could do for them for that amount. If they had no budget at all, I would have to decline to work with them.
DrFreelance
August 11th, 2010 at 12:14 pmI’ve done two major barter deals in the past few years. For me, as with numerous people cite above, it came down to wanting/needing the service that the potential client had.
In the first case, it was more of a necessity–writing services in exchange for medical care that wasn’t covered by insurance. In the second case, it’s helping someone write a book in exchange for free golf every week. In both cases, I was very happy with my decision, and don’t regret at all the fact that I’m not getting paid in cash.
Niubi
August 11th, 2010 at 12:23 pmI think it really depends on how much time you have and if you’re inclined to experiment with growth. I mean, what if the client was someone like DubLi and you could reasonably expect some great exposure down the line? Certainly I feel that it is worth some negotiation, in any case.
Sharon Hurley Hall
August 11th, 2010 at 12:38 pmMy response:
Thank you for your kind comments about my work on Writing Thoughts and Freelance Folder.
Unfortunately, I am unable to accept a barter arrangement in exchange for my writing services. If you still wish to use my services, I am happy to discuss what services I could provide to fit your budget.
ENDS
I’ve responded this way just in case the potential client really has the money to pay for my services. It leaves the door open to further discussion without committing me to a non-paying arrangement. I might also include some sample prices for the work requested and usual payment terms.
Jen
August 11th, 2010 at 12:42 pmI cheated…I read the entire article without commenting, but I did think about my response to the email before I read on.
I agree with you. If I need or regularly use their product, then I’m all ears. In some cases (especially if the project isn’t time consuming) it may be in the interest of both parties to conduct business with a barter-exchange. But, the bottom line, it’s a business and running a business (not to mention living life) costs actual dollars.
Great article!
Mary
August 11th, 2010 at 12:57 pmLike others have said, it depends. While I typically wouldn’t do it (cause it doesn’t pay the bills), I did work to barter some services when I started planning my wedding. That stuff adds up, and for a little web work on my part, I was able to get some wedding planner services without paying.
Basically, it’d have to be something I’ll actually use, and that I find value in. I’m not going to barter services for a gardening business cause I don’t have a yard, you know?
Michael Wilson
August 11th, 2010 at 1:03 pmI haven’t read any other comments yet, so I apologise if this is repeating what has already been said.
I’ll also mention before I start that I’m a web designer.
I would more often than not reply to these guys by telling them my rates and offering to create a basic solution for them now and build up to something bigger as they grow.
However, I would certainly have a look into what ‘product/service’ it is they offer and the value of it. If it was something that I think I could benefit from then I would not refuse straight off.
Laura Spencer
August 11th, 2010 at 1:05 pmThis is a really great discussion!
It’s interesting to hear that lots of freelancers have to deal with these types of inquiries. It’s also interesting to read some of the responses that you would have sent to the inquirer.
In addition, I particularly appreciate those who have taken the time to share their experiences with bartering. I knew that some freelancers were bartering, but now I see that it’s fairly common. It’s really interesting to read these accounts.
Keep the discussion going!!
The Freelance Geek
August 11th, 2010 at 1:07 pmIf I want something I buy it with the money I get from work.
If someone wants me to do work they have to pay me.
I always stick to this approach even with people who have something I need/ use.
It keeps Business simple for me.
I’d love a Porsche but they won’t swap Web Design for one… Shame :(
Sharon Hurley Hall
August 11th, 2010 at 1:22 pmJust to follow up on my previous comment, I have used barter arrangements for advertising and with a couple of friends and that has generally worked well, but I tend to avoid clients who start with the idea of barter.
elyse
August 11th, 2010 at 1:31 pmJust an FYI…there are bartering organizations out there, so perhaps some freelancers would be more likely to agree to a bartering job if it were one of these groups. I’m not affiliated with any whatsoever; I heard about it from a freelancer colleague. She agreed to work with one because one of the members is a service provider she already uses regularly.
Sponsi
August 11th, 2010 at 2:10 pmOh, I know! I’m just about to do some service exchange with one girl from a hairdresser’s near my condo. She’s opening her own business real soon and we had some introductory talks about creating her web page and that “we will talk about it for sure” so I guess it will mean a solid hairdresser coupon. I think this is a kind of cooperation DrFreelance is having. I hope it will work out OK too : )
Kei San Pablo
August 11th, 2010 at 2:44 pmI am so not against bartering also, but I do believe that it depends on our preferences.
When both parties will “equally” benefit, why not? Like Stephan mentioned, its hard to measure if an apple = apple.
As a freelancer myself, where my time/service = income, having no budget is different from no budget at all. I am confident enough that my services will bring value to my client’s business, and I should be rewarded as well.
But it’s so great to read about Quint and an office space, and liqui.do’s free drinks! Now that’s bartering! =)
Thanks for the post Laura!
Kei
Kimberlee Morrison
August 11th, 2010 at 3:55 pmMy first instinct is that no, I would not be willing to barter. Mostly because right now, I’m still in the process of building my freelance income and can’t afford to not be paid real money. On the other hand, if the product/service is something I currently pay for and the barter would benefit me financially (through savings), then I might consider it.
SallyF
August 11th, 2010 at 3:59 pmOn the whole I’d respond politely and say thanks ever so much for thinking of me and I’m glad they’re enjoying my work and hope that continues to be the case; however I don’t have any capacity just now for any unpaid work, but wish them all the best and that I look forward to seeing how their company grows.
Unless – their service is something I genuinely want / need at that time and I have the availability to undertake some work (so I’m not losing out on any paid work by filling my time with this instead); or there’s a vested interest in me doing it – say I want to be able to say they’re a client to other people; or it’s a new area that I wanted to trial anyway. In which case I would want to negotiate a very carefully agreed deal about what exactly would be exchanged – how much work I would provide and what the outcomes would be; and what exactly I’d be getting in exchange.
On the whole I believe you get what you give – if you’re polite, respectful and professional, that’s how people see you. If you offer work for free, sadly this can lead to people assuming you’re not busy / not in demand / are grateful for whatever you can get – and this can lead to people being taken advantage of. Luckily I’m in a position to be able to say no and only go with work I genuinely want to do / know I can make a good job of (and pays a decent fee).
But I believe it is possible to offer some mutually beneficial ‘free’ work in a way that maintains your professional reputation as long as it’s structured and agreed in the same way you would any other contract.
OK now I’m going to read your responses and everyone else’s so I might come back to comment more after that.
SallyF
August 11th, 2010 at 4:10 pmActually reading through reminds me this has sort of happened to me. Someone asked if I would work for them in exchange for shares in their company. At the time it was at very initial start-up stages and after lots of talk with the two existing directors I declined.
For three reasons:
1. I am a freelancer by choice because I don’t want all the extra work of running a company, I just want to do the work. So I didn’t want to be one of their company directors and get embroiled in all that.
2. And the main reason – they really couldn’t tell me succinctly what the point of their product was. They talk around in all sorts of ways about ethics and community and collaboration – but they couldn’t sum up in one sentence what their product was / does.
I felt if they couldn’t make it clear to me, after lots of meetings and when I already have an interest in the field they’re in, they probably would struggle to really pitch it to anyone in a way that would turn a profit.
3. I felt if they really valued my professional opinion, they could pay for it. I would rather negotiate smaller fees and realistic delivery, than shares with strings (and indefinite levels of commitment / work)
I also know someone who actually has said ‘I will work for cake’ and actually has done! Foolishly she said it on twitter so I imagine anyone who would have contacted her for professional contracts probably thought twice after that.
Piry
August 11th, 2010 at 4:37 pmI’d ask more about the product or service they had in mind before making a decision.
Maybe it’s an expensive HD camera, maybe it’s a huge hard drive, maybe it’s a couple of shirts.
Sandro Salsi
August 11th, 2010 at 4:43 pmI am always open to trade services. And never say no to business. You never know who that client may know…
I would probably have looked at what they had to offer. Just in case…
Bartering services is working for me very well. It is giving me the opportunity to prove myself and get gig I would not get otherwise.
My 2 cents…
Vail
August 11th, 2010 at 5:03 pmI tend to use delay tactics to keep the ball in the other person’s court in situations like these until I have the upper hand. My response would have gone something like:
“Hello!
I am interested in learning more about your product/service and how it would specifically benefit me and my business. If it turns out to be useful, I would be more than happy to offer some editorial insight to how you can improve your copy.”
What this really says is “Send me a real proposal and if I like your site and your product I will help you help yourself (but not do a full rewrite)”
In the end, it really depends on the service or product. An example of where I might accept this kind of arrangement would be if a developer of some nice wordpress plugins or themes offered me a gratis package for editing his or her website copy to prepare for a marketing push. I would turn it down instantly if it was something that didnt relate to my business, or a service/product I myself provide.
Laura Spencer
August 11th, 2010 at 5:07 pmWhat a great discussion!
After reading through the comments, I see that I probably dismissed the client too quickly (thanks Vail). I can see that a better approach might have been to try to negotiate a cash payment, like so many of you suggested.
Also, it’s interesting to read all the comments from those who have tried bartering. Obviously, bartering works well for many people.
Thanks to everyone for their comments. Keep them coming. :-)
Hilary
August 11th, 2010 at 5:24 pmDear Joe,
I’m afraid that unless you are the electric, water or cable company, I can not engage in a trade of services/goods. :)
Ok maybe I wouldn’t say that exactly. Actually I would if it were face to face and said with a smile.
Trading tends to devalue the transaction in a variety of ways and often one or both parties end up unhappy in the end. There’s typically not as much at stake for people emotionally when they aren’t putting something of great value such as cash in the equation. You would think they people’s would value their goods or services more but often cash is of the greatest value instead.
This isn’t ALWAYS the case but early on in my career I did several trades that didn’t go well. One project ended up back burner so I could get money from paying clients to pay the bills and the backburner client wasn’t thrilled … or in another situation I held up my end of the deal and never got my trade payment in return (so I wasn’t “paid” at all because they were always busy with paying clients.)
When someone who charged only 1/8th my prices wanted to trade hour for hour (instead of dollar for dollar) I flat out said I wasn’t interested and told myself I would never even consider trading again.
The “I don’t have a big budget” line even without the request for a trade is also a huge red flag indicating that they will probably be a problem client.
Recently though I did take a project that had 3 big red flags. Even with the red flags my gut feeling was that things would be fine anyway (and it was!) So there’s nothing that’s ever 100%. Rules are there more for guidance.
Luis London
August 11th, 2010 at 5:38 pmMy answer:
Dear Joe, I will love to work on your project and am open to trade my services for two pairs of those nice italian shoes on your website.
Call me to discuss the project details
P.S.
Shoe size 7, color brown, style 3057 and 3060
marlon @ productivity bits
August 11th, 2010 at 6:49 pmI think barter can only be applicable to tasks that you are already outsourcing to somebody (virtual assistant, for example).
TLC
August 11th, 2010 at 9:49 pmI would go to their Web site and see what their product/service is, and if it’s something would be interested bartering. I’d also see how much text is in the Web site to revise and update, and determine if the amount of work/cost to revise the text could be matched by the product/service to be bartered.
I ran into this problem once with contractor. He was going to give me an estimate to redo my basement; I was going to give him a new Web site. Unfortunately, the bid for my basement was over $13,000; his Web site wasn’t going to cost more than $6,000. So no barter!
TLC
August 11th, 2010 at 9:53 pmPart 2: A successful barter. Some friends own car sales/repair shop. I offered to give their daughter HTML/CSS lessons in exchange for car repair/maintenance services. My hope was that I would earn enough to get the new catalytic converter I need, but she ended the lessons early when she got a new job. But I still ended up with $260 on account for oil changes and car repairs, so I don’t have to worry about them for a long time.
Ben
August 12th, 2010 at 3:12 amI would usually say no. But If the client offers to pay my rent and utilities, I would consider.
Matt Keegan
August 12th, 2010 at 7:44 amLaura, my policy is never to barter with someone I don’t know. I want to have a business relationship with that party first before I agree to work with someone new.
Lots of new companies have the best of intentions, but they aren’t going to be around for the long haul. I can’t imaging investing my time or giving up something of myself to help them without a remunerative value apparent.
Mary E. Ulrich
August 12th, 2010 at 8:56 amI’ve been a volunteer most of my life. Not because I want to–because I have to. That means no funds to do the many things that HAVE to be done if I am going to get the services I need for my son.
So I barter a lot. When you have no funds, you often have no choice.
Right now, I am in a bartering contract (informal) with my dentist. Yep, first time for that one. I help him with advocacy for his son who has a disability and he is giving me dental work.
Just thinking about it makes me laugh–except we are both getting our needs met and the bonus is that I have a new friend.
Barter is the oldest form of marketing and commerce.
Jennae
August 12th, 2010 at 9:18 amAs a general rule, potential clients who want to barter are a red flag for me. Most of the time, I will not even consider a barter arrangement, because as others said, I have to pay my bills in cash. That said, I HAVE done a partial barter once. The client had a small budget, but she also had a product I needed. So she paid what she had in cash, and the difference in product. I feel like we both got what we were looking for and neither felt slighted at the end of the deal.
Assuming the “product or service” peaked my interest enough, my response to this particular request probably would’ve been something like:
“Thank you so much for your kind words about my work and your interest in working with me. I would love to speak with you more about your budget and the scope of the work you are requesting. I understand that startups may not have a lot of cash flow, but perhaps we can come up with a solution that meets your needs within your budget. Or perhaps we could work out a payment schedule that splits the cost so that you could pay for the project over time.
Alternatively, I would be interested in learning more about your product or service to ensure that it is something I specifically need or that will benefit my business in a measurable way. If it meets either of these criteria, I will consider an arrangement that is mutually beneficial to us both.
Thank you.”
This response puts the focus on their budget, however small it may be, to make it clear that being paid in cash in my definite preference. It also lets them know that I am not completely closed to the idea of a barter, but it is an alternative rather than a preference, and even then, only if I see measurable value in their product or service.
Derek Iannelli-Smith
August 12th, 2010 at 9:37 amI just got asked this recently, and agree with your article content and response. I understand there are variables from time to time, but many times, part of being in business is that it for a win-win situation (rare cases for bartering) and other times, it is just someone trying to cheapen your service, and taints the relationship. I have yet to see for instance, a barter client volunteer to start paying. Thanks for the reminder, as this economy means we have to be thinking about these things.
Web design portfolio
August 12th, 2010 at 9:39 amI’d evaluate their product/services and see if I could genuinely benefit from one. If not I’d go along a similar line to your response, only I’d be a little more polite and accommodating. I’d state how much I’d charge for a service and then give the benefits of why they should go with me. I’d also state that although, I appreciate their thoughts on my work, I can’t at this time commit to the time and effort spent on doing the job without adequate financial payment.
Paris Vega
August 12th, 2010 at 12:11 pmDefinitely depends on the services they offer.
Jessica
August 12th, 2010 at 12:29 pmI’ve never done barter work, but am currently looking to trade services in exchange for office space. But I want to work it like this; “each month entitles you to X number of hours of work”, … or something along those lines.
Stephen Tiano
August 12th, 2010 at 12:31 pmPerhaps I’ve been doing this too long. But, while not being terse, I would simply say that I’m a professional and, as such, my freelance income goes to support my wife and myself. Bartering is not the way most professionals do business. And further it’s a possible invitation to trouble with the IRS. Any business that is so undercapitalized as to not be able to pay for the services they require to stay in business should think about becoming a wage-earner. It’s irresponsible to expect other going businesses to support one’s ill-planned and -funded enterprise.
Chris Janus
August 12th, 2010 at 2:29 pmgreat subject!
i am up for bartering services but only if i’m trading for a service i already use and trust. i’m currently in the middle of a project with a local automotive services shop i’ve been using for several years now. i know their services (fantastic), i frequently use their services, and i know i’ll be using plenty more of their services going forward. i had written up an agreement as i would for any project, clearly outlining my charges as well as details like a timeframe for receipt of returned services (payment), circumstances that could change the agreement and make the balance immediately due (i.e. the owner leaves the shop, the shop closes, etc.), etc. just to cover myself. i know what their rates are and already had quotes for work i needed done even, so it was a very open & honest exchange in terms of payment.
similar to other projects, i also required an initial deposit first. as a result, i was able to get some major work done that i had been desperately needing for the last year but was unable to afford. now i have a credit on account for future work with them, and meanwhile they’re getting some much needed web help. i know not every situation may work out this well, but this project in specific is really benefiting both parties!
on the other side, i generally would NOT be open to working for trade with a random company i’ve never heard or or used before. without the firsthand knowledge and/or experience of their services, i really wouldn’t know what i’d be getting in return for my work.
Aaron Moody
August 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pmI would say something along the lines of,
Hi Joe, nice to meet you and glad you are a fan of my work,
Unfortuneatly I don’t like to work via a trade for trade basis as I have had bad experiences with this method in the past. And as this is my full time income I cannot afford to take on jobs which do not give me a monetary return.
Again thanks for the offer and I do hope to work with you at some point in the future.
-Aaron
Arevik Dumikian
August 13th, 2010 at 1:29 amHello Laura :)
This post reminded me of a site I found somewhere (probably even somewhere on FF) http://clientsfromhell.net/ – it’s full of strange type communications :)
As for my opinion, I would courteously response: “Thank you for your email and your interest in my work. However, I do not provide service on barter base.” Then I would wish them every luck in their career. I think this is it :)
Thank you for another great post!
Lynn Clark
August 13th, 2010 at 11:56 pmI often work for trade, but only with people I know and for equal value in products or services back.
These are never “handshake” deals, but rather the same proposal I use for paid work. I estimate how much the project would cost, and then the client does the same. We sign a contract and keep accounting of who owes who what.
For example, I take event photos for my writer’s group for trade, because this side business pays for my fun, and one of the things I buy is their workshops. It’s a win/win because they also let me advertise in their space, and I’ve picked up several paying clients due to that.
I also traded web content writing with my favorite graphic designer, who created my logo for a former business.
In other words, if I can trade for something I’d be paying for anyway, why not trade? I do capture it in my accounting as income, and the item traded for as a business expense (if that’s what it is). And it keeps money in my pocket for other things.
Since this letter writer is unknown to me (in the example), I’d most likely not barter with him, especially with this rather vague letter. I would call him to find out what the project entails, give him a formal estimate, and, like others try to work a payment plan, a scaled back project they could afford, or refer him to someone who’s just starting out and likely charges less.
harly
August 14th, 2010 at 11:48 amYou must portray an image of yourself as professional as the work which you do. Looking professional can be done in several ways, the most important of which is your portfolio.Your portfolio is extremely important as it is one of the very first things the client will see. Try and make your portfolio stand out and reflect your professional side.
Issa
August 16th, 2010 at 1:21 amIt’s funny you wrote this post as I have just received something very much similar to this. It’s so tempting to just reply: Would you do it, if you were in my shoes? Still, you’ll never know that this small time client will become big time one day – and when that happens, you want to be on top of his/her freelancers list. So, just politely decline and leave an opportunity for you to connect in the future ( like requesting connections via LinkedIn ).
Jay Mcleod
August 16th, 2010 at 9:29 amI did not have to even read the rest of this article before I made up my mind. I would have said no. I have been burned many times with bartering I will never do it again. I once bartered a maintenance website design for some home improvement works, and the guys who fixed up my house made it worse. I traded SEO services for some copy, and found out the copy was plagiarized. It just isnt worth it anymore.
I did have one barter go well, but it was a friend of mine. He traded me and $800 Dell monitor for a website for his side business. Best trade I ever made, and actually one of the only ones that worked out in my favor.
Lillie Ammann
August 17th, 2010 at 4:54 amLaura,
I don’t do direct trades, but I am a member of a barter exchange and do work on barter for clients through the exchange. That way it doesn’t matter whether I need the other party’s services or not. I get paid in trade credits in the exact dollar amount I would charge the client in cash. I then use those trade credits for goods and services from any member of the exchange. The barter exchange keeps track of the transactions and balance like a bank does for cash.
I originally started trading when I owned an interior landscape company, and I sold used plants (those that been removed from client accounts) to customers on trade. The plants weren’t acceptable for the very high standards required for a luxury hotel or class A office building, but most homeowners didn’t care that the plant was slightly misshapen or a little bare on the bottom.
I continued to do business on trade after I started freelancing because I had business relationships built up with a number of businesses I paid in trade dollars. I have done business with my CPA on trade for more than 20 years. Until he retired, I paid for all my out-of-pocket expenses with my doctor on trade. I still use the same dentist and the same optometrist that I’ve used for years, all on trade. I’ve bought a hot tub, a lift chair, and a complete interior design of our home on trade. I probably would not have been able to afford those items for cash. There are many restaurants available through the trade exchange … and we eat out a lot.
I don’t do as much business on trade now as I did in the interior landscape business simply because I don’t have the time. With the trade exchange, though, I can tell them when I’m willing to accept work and when I’m not. I can be selective about what services I will offer on trade also.
One of my best clients originally came to me through the trade exchange. I did the first few hours of editing his first book on trade, then he ran out of trade dollars. He’s been a client for more than four years now, and I bill him anywhere from $200 to $4,000 a month in cash, depending on where is at in his current book. I’ve also got a lot of cash business from referrals from trade customers. So you can see I’m a big believer in trade!
This comment is turning into a post, and I’ve already written several posts and one series on my blog about bartering.
In your situation, I would respond to the potential client by saying that I’m always open to trade business, but I only trade through the trade exchange. If he isn’t a member, I’ll be glad to have someone from the exchange contact him with membership information, and if he decides to join, I would be happy to work with him.
Mike
August 17th, 2010 at 8:48 pmI think the most important this is how to deal with the client in the first place. .
J
August 19th, 2010 at 3:01 amBit late to the party… There’s very few cases in which I would barter, and those cases involve people I’ve had a long-standing relationship with. In this case, no, I would not barter, because they clearly do not value your time and effort as much as they would value their own (or that of an electrician, or plumber, or…). You’d probably see a lot of “out-of-scope demands,” I suspect, because their product “costs” less to them (mentally, and perhaps in actuality) to pay you with than money.
One woman I know is an equestrian–she trains horses, owns horses, rides horses, and instructs others in the fine details of horsemanship. This is a skill that I regularly pay anywhere from $30-$45 an hour to obtain. I value my time similarly, if not higher when working with some skillsets. So, it makes sense for me to offer my services to this woman, who I’ve known for years, in exchange for lessons from her, in a ratio that we agree appears fair for both of us. We both get something out of it that we otherwise would’ve paid out of pocket for, so we’re not really at any loss.
I did almost get into a bartering situation once with people I hadn’t had much of a relationship with, but pulled out of it once they reneged on a smaller-scale deal. As much as I wanted the situation to work out, it was clear that it was not going to work out because they weren’t taking this seriously (and I was so burned and soured by their actions that I cannot willingly do business with them even if they did pay me–or recommend anyone else to do business with them, either).
At least when you charge in cold, hard cash your clients take you seriously and treat your time like it has some actual value to them; with a barter they don’t seem to see it the same way because it doesn’t have the same cost to them…
Lester Jeffries
September 20th, 2010 at 12:00 pmI don’t like the idea of trading services, unless it something I really need.
Cassie
March 10th, 2011 at 3:55 amHonestly, I would have just deleted it. I have way too much going on to deal with stuff like this.
alex
June 6th, 2011 at 1:19 pmAs you say it involve many factors to make a decision, I like your humble and straight to the point reply.
For me it easy, if I have a spare time I will received the job, but firstly I will make sure their business is legitimate and I also will make sure that I will received their promised goods or services at the end of my works.
Trackbacks